AFTERLIFE GEOGRAPHIES | INTERSECTING COSMOLOGIES IN THE SURROUND
AFRICAN BURIAL GROUND
KAMAU AMU PATTON & ZAINAB LASCANDRI
NEW YORK, NEW YORK
AUGUST 28, 2024
LINK TO VIDEO WITH SOUND:SEQUENCE 2
AFTERLIFE GEOGRAPHIES
African Burial Ground National Monument. August 28, 2024
intersecting cosmologies in the surround
flowers for the dead
A conversation: Kamau Amu Patton (K) & Zainab Lascandri (Z)
LINK TO PROJECT TEXTS: INTERSECTING COSMOLOGIES
(K)… the idea of, what... why... this piece as a document of our experience… of us meeting each other, coming together, and deciding to go and have this experience together as a kind of resolution. As a thing that we share and to return to that space with intention and trust to follow this action… flowers for the dead.
…to do this together and say, okay, we're going to engage in this space… and engage in this performance, to explore our relationship and our relationship to these people.
…to perform a ritual of remembrance. Not as a claiming of space, but as an activation of space…
…to encourage activation, to maybe give ourselves permission to engage in a particular way with ancestors, and also to encourage that through this example.
(Z) …to encourage other people... to interact also.
(K)Yes, to interact.
(Z)I love this idea of activating something through an engagement in the space. I think it's the main thing.
(K)…and as performance, what is it to claim a space or activate a space in this way? Because this performance is not novel… as certain performance works can be very specific and individual… not to be repeated as such, but to be performed… that is, to be repeated as ritual.
And ritual has certain protocols, and it's for all of us to engage in this as a potential ritual practice, which is community.
And this is what these types of sites offer. They offer the opportunity to be in solidarity, to be in communion, to do this together. To acknowledge our histories, to acknowledge what our people went through.
…and for us to be here together, is a really important thing… I just to have share that with you… I want to witness to that. I think it's important to register this as something that is to be expanded upon, something that can be...
(Z)… I think we can also see it as exploring a method to... This could be the question. I think about what is this method for, and what is the reaction out of this method? Like a ritual? It's a similar thing, but like ritual, method, it's...
(K)…a methodology… so rituals and methodology.
(Z)Maybe also those terms. What is it, then, to think about that?
(K)So the methodology for what, right? Is it a methodology for connecting?
It is a part of it, I think it's building a relationship too, and so the dead are not dead, and that you're continually refining your relationship to these ancestral energies, and that's refining your relationship to yourself.
(Z)I couldn't say better… that’s the point. For me personally, I think it's absolutely that.
(K) So I think that part of what it means to go into that particular space and allow yourself to feel the energies or explore those energies. That site in particular, the way it's a well that holds sound in a particular way, holds light in a particular way, it is a whirlpool.
(Z)I had a question that came into my mind and I was wondering is there specific behaviors we are conditioned to have in memorials?
I'm more in the context of memorials from the Second World War. This is how I’ve culturally been raised. So I don't know what's your experience with memorials… do you have different...
How do you move through these memorials? Do you think you change your behavior because you learned... You know, like being in a graveyard, or being more silent or… I don't know.
(K)…to know how you are supposed to be.
(Z)Your situated knowledge.
(K)Well, I think that where I grew up, a lot of memorials in the neighborhood were improvised… they were communal memorials for people who had passed away.
There are protocols, there are libations, there are candles… there is an accumulation that happens that registers the site for what it is, a site of remembrance. And there's an aesthetic of this, there are codes, there are ways that I understand this to be a site of remembrance.
…so, on the level of this memorial space for... people that I feel connected to in this kind of way…
…we have to remember this suffering… and consider new codes of remembering and well, what is it?
A memorial for the journey… remembering this passage, of movement, of transit, of crossing water…
…and that this journey isn’t over… a diasporic mythology.
What is this journey about? Who are the heroes within this journey?
And so with these memorials… this particular memorial, it feels like it offers an opportunity for a kind of active exploration… a journey. It’s a walking pathway.
… a meditation on a very particular set of circumstances. So I think it's instructive in that way.
As a mass of the experience…
As being in the presence…
Of ground markings that that activate.
…that have their own codes. One is surrounded by a set of mappings…
Intersecting cosmologies in the surround
…an important aspect of the experience.
And maybe you can say… what is the difference… being in this kind of site versus what Memorial looks like in the European context?
(Z)Absolutely… yes, that's a new experience to reconnect, especially with this part of history, memorials, which we just don't have. So there is nothing to explore. So you find your own ways to reconnect with ancestors, a known practice, or looking for practices you can appreciate, or explore through your arts, which has kind of become also a similar thing, to try to reconnect with your ancestors through your artistic practice. So you change your practice, that you come closer to your ancestors. Or in my case, it's very strongly connected with that… when I realized I want to reconnect more… or, to open up.
And to let them in.
(K)So I think that this is, to me… it's a moment on a personal journey for me to sift through ways to remember, but also thinking about what it means to build an infrastructure of remembrance and ritual within... and offer to engage… here we are... looking for these places… in this area… where many generations have been.
…how do we register our presence in a time where there's been a lot of erasure? In a time when an entire burial ground full of people could be erased?
(Z)I was very surprised when I came to New York for my first time it's a kind of very violent dynamic, right?
(K)…so this feels like a way to engage that… to register a presence, and register the significance
of such sites as active… dynamic …you coming here… us meeting…
…what do we share on a creative level, a social level…?
…we share a journey that then brings us here and we explore through coming to this place… which is something that I don't share with every artist, traveler.
I feel like that's part of why you're here.
(Z)…we don't know so exactly why, but yeah, it had to be said.
(K)…experience… same, same.
(Z)…still processing I think this experience, this particular experience. I love... actually it's kind of a part also of a research journey, a reconnection journey. It's spiritual but also gathering different layers in it. I would love to also experience more this practice of, this together practice of these kind of spaces. Which are open or public.
Which is a different challenge also to connect. Or for me personally, I felt like, oh, okay, wow. It's like, okay, to really let it go, to come in a state to connect, or honestly try to connect. Or come to this point where I feel like, ah, I open up a door, which things can happen through vibration.
(K)…and to trust that.
(Z)Yes, but I think also that it needs kind of… practice.
A practice, is necessary to maybe also reach and learn the stage. It's also a little bit like Kung Fu, that you need body knowledge, so you have to really practice.
…I think I don't have this practice yet.
(K)So this is… looking at the space… being in that space… what does it now offer?
Or what did it offer?
To be in that moment?
Is there something to the site that you were listening to?
Were you saying that you were listening to something?
I felt like that's what I was hearing… that there was something about the site and the possibilities of the site that were maybe… an antidote to the publicness.
…or, what is it about the public nature of the site that becomes more challenging than if it were enclosed?
(Z)…you know what I mean? I think that was the challenge… because it was not closed.
And, I think also geographically in the city, where it is, like in this center of Manhattan, like very vibrant and business, and… it's also kind of special place for a memorial.
…especially this memorial. Or, for my experience, personal experience, I would say so. Yeah, I think that it's also about that. I'm not used to... I think the memorials I experienced were more in a nature kind of environment, or kind of closed.
(K)…which for me is kind of an issue, when you go to memorials… whose memory is centered?
…you grew up in a family… your father is African… your mom is European.
Okay, so what was at the center of memory?
(Z)…like institutional wise like through school?
…it’s very Eurocentric, so I think a lot of Second World War to be honest. The rest kind of erased or came later. And I think from family sides, yeah too.
I think my mother tried her best to find as much as possible stories by different writers… so that we can grow up with some narrations.
And already in these narrations you have a lot about the idea of life, death and ancestors.
And yes that's why I like the texts in your performance, which were immediately familiar to me, which I was like…oh, that's maybe a fairy tale, an African fairy tale. Yeah. I think it's Nigerian, right?
…yeah, I think those kind of also morbid sequences… but it has also the sci-fi aspects somehow.
I think this is my connection. I grew up with a lot of books.
I think that's maybe my... And there are some layers, I think, of maybe also how to think about death, life…
AFRICAN BURIAL GROUND
NEW YORK, NEW YORK
AUGUST 28, 2024
LINK TO VIDEO WITH SOUND: SEQUENCE 2
AFRICAN BURIAL GROUND
KAMAU AMU PATTON & ZAINAB LASCANDRI
NEW YORK, NEW YORK
AUGUST 28, 2024
LINK TO VIDEO WITH SOUND:SEQUENCE 2
AFTERLIFE GEOGRAPHIES
African Burial Ground National Monument. August 28, 2024
intersecting cosmologies in the surround
flowers for the dead
A conversation: Kamau Amu Patton (K) & Zainab Lascandri (Z)
LINK TO PROJECT TEXTS: INTERSECTING COSMOLOGIES
(K)… the idea of, what... why... this piece as a document of our experience… of us meeting each other, coming together, and deciding to go and have this experience together as a kind of resolution. As a thing that we share and to return to that space with intention and trust to follow this action… flowers for the dead.
…to do this together and say, okay, we're going to engage in this space… and engage in this performance, to explore our relationship and our relationship to these people.
…to perform a ritual of remembrance. Not as a claiming of space, but as an activation of space…
…to encourage activation, to maybe give ourselves permission to engage in a particular way with ancestors, and also to encourage that through this example.
(Z) …to encourage other people... to interact also.
(K)Yes, to interact.
(Z)I love this idea of activating something through an engagement in the space. I think it's the main thing.
(K)…and as performance, what is it to claim a space or activate a space in this way? Because this performance is not novel… as certain performance works can be very specific and individual… not to be repeated as such, but to be performed… that is, to be repeated as ritual.
And ritual has certain protocols, and it's for all of us to engage in this as a potential ritual practice, which is community.
And this is what these types of sites offer. They offer the opportunity to be in solidarity, to be in communion, to do this together. To acknowledge our histories, to acknowledge what our people went through.
…and for us to be here together, is a really important thing… I just to have share that with you… I want to witness to that. I think it's important to register this as something that is to be expanded upon, something that can be...
(Z)… I think we can also see it as exploring a method to... This could be the question. I think about what is this method for, and what is the reaction out of this method? Like a ritual? It's a similar thing, but like ritual, method, it's...
(K)…a methodology… so rituals and methodology.
(Z)Maybe also those terms. What is it, then, to think about that?
(K)So the methodology for what, right? Is it a methodology for connecting?
It is a part of it, I think it's building a relationship too, and so the dead are not dead, and that you're continually refining your relationship to these ancestral energies, and that's refining your relationship to yourself.
(Z)I couldn't say better… that’s the point. For me personally, I think it's absolutely that.
(K) So I think that part of what it means to go into that particular space and allow yourself to feel the energies or explore those energies. That site in particular, the way it's a well that holds sound in a particular way, holds light in a particular way, it is a whirlpool.
(Z)I had a question that came into my mind and I was wondering is there specific behaviors we are conditioned to have in memorials?
I'm more in the context of memorials from the Second World War. This is how I’ve culturally been raised. So I don't know what's your experience with memorials… do you have different...
How do you move through these memorials? Do you think you change your behavior because you learned... You know, like being in a graveyard, or being more silent or… I don't know.
(K)…to know how you are supposed to be.
(Z)Your situated knowledge.
(K)Well, I think that where I grew up, a lot of memorials in the neighborhood were improvised… they were communal memorials for people who had passed away.
There are protocols, there are libations, there are candles… there is an accumulation that happens that registers the site for what it is, a site of remembrance. And there's an aesthetic of this, there are codes, there are ways that I understand this to be a site of remembrance.
…so, on the level of this memorial space for... people that I feel connected to in this kind of way…
…we have to remember this suffering… and consider new codes of remembering and well, what is it?
A memorial for the journey… remembering this passage, of movement, of transit, of crossing water…
…and that this journey isn’t over… a diasporic mythology.
What is this journey about? Who are the heroes within this journey?
And so with these memorials… this particular memorial, it feels like it offers an opportunity for a kind of active exploration… a journey. It’s a walking pathway.
… a meditation on a very particular set of circumstances. So I think it's instructive in that way.
As a mass of the experience…
As being in the presence…
Of ground markings that that activate.
…that have their own codes. One is surrounded by a set of mappings…
Intersecting cosmologies in the surround
…an important aspect of the experience.
And maybe you can say… what is the difference… being in this kind of site versus what Memorial looks like in the European context?
(Z)Absolutely… yes, that's a new experience to reconnect, especially with this part of history, memorials, which we just don't have. So there is nothing to explore. So you find your own ways to reconnect with ancestors, a known practice, or looking for practices you can appreciate, or explore through your arts, which has kind of become also a similar thing, to try to reconnect with your ancestors through your artistic practice. So you change your practice, that you come closer to your ancestors. Or in my case, it's very strongly connected with that… when I realized I want to reconnect more… or, to open up.
And to let them in.
(K)So I think that this is, to me… it's a moment on a personal journey for me to sift through ways to remember, but also thinking about what it means to build an infrastructure of remembrance and ritual within... and offer to engage… here we are... looking for these places… in this area… where many generations have been.
…how do we register our presence in a time where there's been a lot of erasure? In a time when an entire burial ground full of people could be erased?
(Z)I was very surprised when I came to New York for my first time it's a kind of very violent dynamic, right?
(K)…so this feels like a way to engage that… to register a presence, and register the significance
of such sites as active… dynamic …you coming here… us meeting…
…what do we share on a creative level, a social level…?
…we share a journey that then brings us here and we explore through coming to this place… which is something that I don't share with every artist, traveler.
I feel like that's part of why you're here.
(Z)…we don't know so exactly why, but yeah, it had to be said.
(K)…experience… same, same.
(Z)…still processing I think this experience, this particular experience. I love... actually it's kind of a part also of a research journey, a reconnection journey. It's spiritual but also gathering different layers in it. I would love to also experience more this practice of, this together practice of these kind of spaces. Which are open or public.
Which is a different challenge also to connect. Or for me personally, I felt like, oh, okay, wow. It's like, okay, to really let it go, to come in a state to connect, or honestly try to connect. Or come to this point where I feel like, ah, I open up a door, which things can happen through vibration.
(K)…and to trust that.
(Z)Yes, but I think also that it needs kind of… practice.
A practice, is necessary to maybe also reach and learn the stage. It's also a little bit like Kung Fu, that you need body knowledge, so you have to really practice.
…I think I don't have this practice yet.
(K)So this is… looking at the space… being in that space… what does it now offer?
Or what did it offer?
To be in that moment?
Is there something to the site that you were listening to?
Were you saying that you were listening to something?
I felt like that's what I was hearing… that there was something about the site and the possibilities of the site that were maybe… an antidote to the publicness.
…or, what is it about the public nature of the site that becomes more challenging than if it were enclosed?
(Z)…you know what I mean? I think that was the challenge… because it was not closed.
And, I think also geographically in the city, where it is, like in this center of Manhattan, like very vibrant and business, and… it's also kind of special place for a memorial.
…especially this memorial. Or, for my experience, personal experience, I would say so. Yeah, I think that it's also about that. I'm not used to... I think the memorials I experienced were more in a nature kind of environment, or kind of closed.
(K)…which for me is kind of an issue, when you go to memorials… whose memory is centered?
…you grew up in a family… your father is African… your mom is European.
Okay, so what was at the center of memory?
(Z)…like institutional wise like through school?
…it’s very Eurocentric, so I think a lot of Second World War to be honest. The rest kind of erased or came later. And I think from family sides, yeah too.
I think my mother tried her best to find as much as possible stories by different writers… so that we can grow up with some narrations.
And already in these narrations you have a lot about the idea of life, death and ancestors.
And yes that's why I like the texts in your performance, which were immediately familiar to me, which I was like…oh, that's maybe a fairy tale, an African fairy tale. Yeah. I think it's Nigerian, right?
…yeah, I think those kind of also morbid sequences… but it has also the sci-fi aspects somehow.
I think this is my connection. I grew up with a lot of books.
I think that's maybe my... And there are some layers, I think, of maybe also how to think about death, life…
AFRICAN BURIAL GROUND
NEW YORK, NEW YORK
AUGUST 28, 2024
LINK TO VIDEO WITH SOUND: SEQUENCE 2